The HyperTexts
1975-1976 Cincinnati Reds Player Trades
Virtual "trades" can help illustrate just how great the 1975-1976 Cincinnati
Reds really were.
Related Pages:
The Greatest Baseball Infields of All Time,
Is Mike Trout the GOAT?, Best Baseball Nicknames,
Weird Baseball Facts and
Trivia, Baseball Hall of Fame: The Best Candidates,
Why Pete Rose
Should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame,
Big Red Machine Timeline/Chronology
According to Bill James and his HFCS rating system, I could trade the "Great
Eight" of the 1975-1976 Reds
for a team of Roy Campanella, Hank Greenberg, Jackie Robinson, Ozzie Smith, Home
Run Baker (or Brooks Robinson), Shoeless Joe Jackson, Ralph Kiner (or Hack
Wilson) and Roger Maris.
That seems pretty amazing to me: a team whose entire infield, including catcher,
compare with the top 1-15 players in the HOF at their respective positions. Add to
that two HOF-caliber outfielders and a great defensive centerfielder having a
career year with the bat. Has there ever been
another team in MLB history with that kind of star quality combined with
that kind of depth? Has any other starting eight in MLB history played as
many games, appeared in as many all-star games, contended for as many MVP
awards, scored as many runs, or driven in as many runs? No, and it really isn't
all that close. As Yogi Berra once said, "You could look it up."
Capsule Bios of the Great Eight
The "slash lines" below are batting average/on-base percentage/slugging
percentage/OPS. An asterisk means the player is a superstar in the Baseball Hall
of Fame (HOF), or should be. A plus sign means the player was well above average
for his position. A minus sign would designate a below-average player, but you
won't find any weak spots in this stellar lineup.
• C Johnny Bench (*) was the #1 catcher of all time according to most rankings;
he was a slugging two-time MVP who won ten consecutive Gold Gloves
• 1B Tony Pérez (*) had 1,652 RBI (more than Mike Schmidt, Rogers Hornsby, Joe
DiMaggio, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle and other immortal sluggers)
• 2B Joe Morgan (*) was the #1 second baseman of all time according to Bill
James; in 1976 the NL MVP led all MLB in WAR, Slugging, OBP, OPS and OPS+
• SS Dave Concepción (*) compares favorably with a number of HOF shortstops
including Reese and Rizzuto; he won five Gold Gloves and two Silver Sluggers
• 3B Pete Rose (*) is the all-time leader in games, wins, hits and times on base;
in 1976 he led all MLB with 215 hits, 307 times on base, 130 runs and 42 doubles
• LF George Foster (*) was baseball's most feared slugger in his prime and
compares favorably with many HOF outfielders; in 1976 he led all MLB with 121 RBI
• RF Ken Griffey Sr. (+) missed the 1976 batting title by an eyelash and slashed .336/.401/.450/.851
with 189 hits, 253 total bases, 111 runs and 34 steals
• CF Cesar Gerónimo (+) won one of four consecutive Gold Gloves in 1976 while
slashing .307/.382/.414/.795
with 201 total bases, 22 steals and 11 triples
For more information about the Great Eight, please click
1975-1976 Cincinnati Reds: the Greatest Baseball Team of All Time?
Trading the Great Eight for Comparable Players
One way to get a feel for the "real value" of the Great Eight is to compare each
player to his closest peers. We can do that via a variety of methods. I will
quickly summarize here, then provide more detail later on this page.
According to WAR rounded to the closest even number, by always trading down for each Red, I could
assemble a team
consisting of:
• C Roy Campanella (a three-time MVP, he averaged 32 homers and 114 RBI per 162 games)
• 1B Jimmie Foxx (he slashed .325/.428/.609./1.038 with 534 homers and 1,922 RBI)
• 2B Charlie Gehringer (he slashed .320/.404/.480/.884 with 1,775 runs)
• SS Ernie Banks (512 HR with 1,636 RBI)
• 3B Pie Traynor (he slashed .320/.362/.435./.797)
• OF Ralph Kiner (a seven-time NL home run leader with a stellar .548 career slugging percentage)
• OF Hack Wilson (a .545 career slugging percentage with season highs of 56 HR and 191 RBI)
• OF Lyman Bostock (he slashed .311/.365/.427/.791)
In win shares, the Great Eight have seven of the top 350 players in major league
baseball history: Rose (#13), Morgan (#18),
Bench (#88), Pérez (#108), Concepción (#297), Foster (#298) and Griffey (#329). If I were to trade down for
the Great Eight, based on career win shares, I could assemble a team of:
• C Mike Piazza
• 1B Hank Greenberg
• 2B Rogers Hornsby
• SS Vern Stephens
• 3B Mike Schmidt
• OF Ralph Kiner
• OF Chuck Klein
• OF Albie Pearson
Using the Reds' combined win shares of 2,673.8 to "buy" replacement players, I
could assemble a "murderers' row" of:
• C Roy Campanella (205.9)
• 1B Jimmie Foxx (431.1)
• 2B Charlie Gehringer (381.5)
• SS Ernie Banks (332.4)
• 3B Pie Traynor (273.0)
• OF Joe DiMaggio (385.9)
• OF Shoeless Joe Jackson (288.1)
• OF Al Simmons (372.9)
Based on career JAWS, Johnny Bench is the #1 catcher of all time; Pete Rose is
the #7 third baseman of all time; Joe Morgan is the #4 second baseman of all
time; Tony Pérez is the #28 first baseman of all time; George Foster is the #30
left fielder of all time; Dave Concepción is the #45 shortstop of all time; Ken
Griffey Sr. is the #71 right fielder of all time; and Cesar Gerónimo is the #204
center fielder of all time. So by trading for near equivalents or down, I could
assemble a team by pick from:
• C Mike Piazza, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Bill Dickey, Mickey Cochrane, Gary
Carter, Carlton Fisk, Ivan Rodriguez, or any other catcher
• 1B Dave Ortiz, Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance, Jim Bottomley, Gil Hodges, Don
Mattingly, Boog Powell, Steve Garvey, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Norm Cash
• 2B Charlie Gehringer, Rod Carew, Jackie Robinson, Ryne Sandberg, Frankie
Frisch, Nellie Fox, Roberto Alomar, Craig Biggio, Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich
• SS Vern Stephens, Phil Rizzuto, Rabbit Maranville, Maury Wills, Dick Groat,
Garry Templeton, Johnny Pesky, John Ward, George Wright, Rico Petrocelli
• 3B Brooks Robinson, Paul Molitor, Edgar Martinez, Home Run Baker, Graig
Nettles, Ron Santo, Dick Allen, Darrell Evans, George Kell, Pie Traynor
• OF Ralph Kiner, Jim Rice, Charlie Keller, Heinie Manush, Lou Brock, Albert
Belle, Pedro Guerrero, Lonnie Smith, Moises Alou
• OF Roger Maris, Kirk Gibson, Carl Furillo, Bob Meusel, Ross Youngs, Gavvy
Cravath, Reggie Sanders, Paul O'Neill, David Justice, Juan Gonzalez
• OF Albie Pearson, Harry "The Hat" Walker, Mule Haas, Bobby Tolan, Lyman
Bostock, Doc Cramer, Don Demeter, Ken Landreaux, Ken Berry
Such "thought experiments" demonstrate just how great the Great Eight really were.
I will do more such experiments, providing more details, later on this page. If
this interests you, you can use CTRL-F or the search feature of your browser to
look for "trades." I have created similar "trades" based on gWAR, WSAB, career
OPS+ and other factors.
More Trades: Trading the Great Eight for Equivalent Players
According to the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor, Pete Rose is the #14 player of
all time, Johnny Bench is #39, Joe Morgan is #64, Dave Concepción is #154,
George Foster is #189, Tony Pérez is #242, Ken Griffey Sr. is #494, and Cesar
Gerónimo is #832.
Quite obviously, the Great Eight had the number one infield of all time, by far.
Especially if we consider catcher to be an infield position.
(I will argue bitterly that Pérez with 1,652 career RBI at an
RBI position is being shortchanged!) However, going with the guru's rankings and
substituting comparable players at each ranking slot, we can come up with a
comparable team of:
Pete Rose (#14, #1 at 3B) ≈ Mickey Mantle (CF),
Honus Wagner, Joe
DiMaggio, Charlie Gehringer, Nap Lajoie, Tris
Speaker, Eddie Collins, Rod Carew, Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Mike Schmidt, Wade
Boggs,
Johnny Bench (#39, #2 at C) ≈ Hank Greenberg (1B), George
Brett, Joe Medwick, George Sisler, Sammy Sosa, Cap Anson, Bill Dickey, Gabby
Hartnett, Mickey Cochrane, Roy Campanella, Mike Piazza, Carlton Fisk
Joe Morgan (#64, #7 at 2B) ≈ Ernie Banks (SS), Reggie Jackson, Bill
Terry, Mark McGwire, Dave Ortiz, Eddie Matthews, Goose Goslin, Paul Molitor, Craig Biggio, Nellie Fox, Ryne Sandberg,
Jeff Kent
Dave Concepción (#154, #14 at SS) ≈ Roy Campanella (C),
Hack Wilson, Willie Stargell, Dick Allen, Jose Canseco, Fred McGriff, Dick Groat, Maury Wills, Pee Wee Reese,
Phil Rizzuto, Tony Fernandez
George Foster (#189, #31 at LF) ≈ Jackie Robinson (2B),
Pie Traynor, Max Carey, Earle Combs, Enos Slaughter, Tony Lazzeri, Bobby Doerr, George Kell, Roger Maris,
Tim Raines, Vada Pinson
Tony Pérez (#242, #23 at 1B*) ≈ Home Run Baker (3B), Max Carey, Elston Howard, Frank Chance,
Moises Alou, Bob Meusel, Frank Howard, Rocky Colavito,
Ted Kluszewski, Gil Hodges, Will Clark
Ken Griffey Sr. (#494, #72 at RF) ≈ Carl Furillo (RF),
Jimmy Collins, Harry Hooper, Buck Ewing, Bill Skowron, Tony Kubek, Cesar Cedeno,
Amos Otis, David Justice, Davey Johnson, Kevin Mitchell
Cesar Gerónimo (#832, #206 at CF) ≈ Kirk Gibson (LF),
Frank Chance, Mark Koenig, Monte Irvin, Heinie Groh, Albie Pearson, Joe Adcock, Mule Haas, Eric Davis, Raul Mondesi, Carl Everett,
Gary Matthews, Lou Pinella, Bobby Tolan, Lyman Bostock, Kirk Gibson, Dave
Henderson, Tommy Harper, Cesar Tovar, Roy White
* I considered some players frequently listed as first basemen to have
predominately played other positions. For instance, Joe Torre played catcher and
third base during his prime years. Jim Thome and Miguel Cabrera played third and
DH. Frank Thomas and Jason Giambi had many years in which they primarily played
DH. Tony Pérez was an all-star four times at third base, but his other 19 years
were spent predominately at first base, with 15 years exclusively at first. In
other words, he really was a first baseman.
Another way to trade is what might be called "Hall of Fame WAR." I have taken
each of the Great Eight and found the closest Hall of Fame players with similar
career WAR
Joe Morgan is the #18 HOF player with 100.3 career WAR ≈ Charlie
Gehringer (2B), Rod Carew, Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Matthews, Carl
Yastrzemski, Cal Ripken, Wade Boggs, George Brett
Pete Rose would rank #35 in the HOF with 79.1 career WAR ≈ Robin Yount
(SS), Ozzie Smith, Joe DiMaggio, Brooks Robinson, Paul Molitor, Sam
Crawford, Dan Brouthers
Johnny Bench is the #41 HOF player with 75.0 career WAR ≈ Reggie Jackson
(RF), Paul Waner, Harry Heilmann, Luke Appling, Frank Thomas, Arky
Vaughn, Johnny Mize
Tony Pérez is the #99 HOF player with 53.9 career WAR ≈ George Sisler
(1B), Bill Terry, Orlando Cepeda, Joe Medwick, Enos Slaughter, Max
Carey, Wee Willie Keeler, Mickey Cochrane
George Foster would rank #134 in the HOF with 43.9 WAR ≈ Hack Wilson
(CF), Chuck Klein, Earle Combs, Frank Chance, Lou Brock, Edd Roush, Sam
Thompson
Dave Concepción would rank #142 in the HOF with 39.8 WAR ≈ Pie Traynor
(3B), Rabbit Maranville, George Kell, Red Schoendienst, Bill Mazeroski,
Ross Youngs
Ken Griffey Sr. would rank #144 in the HOF with 34.4 WAR ≈ Roy
Campanella (C), Lloyd Waner, Chick Hafey, Freddie Lindstrom, High
Pockets Kelly, Ray Schalk
Cesar Gerónimo would rank #168 in the HOF with 13.0 WAR ≈ Tommy McCarthy
(LF), Monte Irvin, Ned Hanlon, Al Lopez, Bucky Harris, Wilbert Robinson
Based on the Baseball Gauge wins above replacement (gWAR) formula, Morgan is #39
and can be traded for Joe DiMaggio, George Brett, Cal Ripken Jr., Cap Anson or
Roberto Clemente. Johnny Bench is #70 and Pete Rose is #71; they can be traded
for any two taken from Charlie Gehringer, Ken Griffey Jr., Paul Waner, Wade
Boggs, Robin Yount, or Rod Carew. Pérez is #209 and can be traded for Mike
Piazza, David Ortiz, Bill Terry or George Sisler. Concepción is #344 and can be
traded for Pie Traynor, George Selkirk or Vic Wertz. Griffey with 33.0 gWAR can
be traded for Roy Campanella, Hank Bauer, Joe Carter or Raul Mondesi. Gerónimo
with 17.3 gWAR can be traded for Bobby Tolan, Gus Bell, Harry Walker or Gary
Matthews. So I could assemble an all-hall-of-fame team of Roy Campanella, Bill
Terry, Charlie Gehringer, Ernie Banks, Pie Traynor, Joe DiMaggio, Joe Medwick
and Harry "the Hat" Walker.
Another way to rank the Reds is by career WAR, according to
BaseballReference.com. These are the all-time WAR player
rankings: Morgan (#21, 100.3), Rose (#40, 79.1, Bench (#48, 75.0), Pérez (#155,
53.9), Foster (#264, 43.9),
Concepción (#326, 39.8), Griffey (#417, 34.4), Gerónimo (not ranked, 13.0 career WAR). To put this in
perspective, Morgan is ranked higher than immortals like Jimmie Foxx,
Cap Anson and Cal Ripken. Rose ranks above Joe DiMaggio, Brooks Robinson and Ozzie
Smith. Bench is above Reggie Jackson, Paul Waner, Frank Thomas and Jim Thome. Pérez is above
Mickey Cochrane, Orlando Cepeda and Ralph Kiner. Foster is above Chuck Klein,
Charlie Keller, Jose Canseco, Darryl Strawberry, Tony Oliva and Earle Combs. Concepción is even
with Dave Parker and Albert Belle, and above Boog Powell, Hack Wilson, Roger Maris, Steve Garvey
and Maury Wills. Griffey is above Roy Campanella, Pedro Guerrero, Joe Adcock and
Gavvy Cravath. Gerónimo compares with Albie Pearson, Lyman Bostock, Mule Haas
and Harry "the Hat" Walker.
According to WAR rounded to the closest even number, by trading down for each Red, I could
assemble a team
consisting of Roy Campanella (C, three-time MVP, averaged 32 homers and 114 RBI
per 162 games), Jimmie Foxx (1B,
.325/.428/.609./1.038 with 534 homers and 1,922 RBI), Charlie Gehringer (2B, .320/.404/.480/.884 with 1,775 runs),
Ernie Banks (SS, 512 HR, 1,636 RBI), Pie Traynor (3B, .320/.362/.435./.797),
Ralph Kiner (OF, seven-time NL home run leader, .548 career slugging percentage), Hack Wilson (OF,
highs of 56 HR and all-time season record 191 RBI, .545 career slugging
percentage) and
Lyman Bostock (CF, .311/.365/.427/.791).
Or for a team of
old-timers, I could trade for Mickey Cochrane (C, .320/.419/.478/.897), Al
Simmons (1B, .334/.380/.535/.915 with 1,828 RBI), Charlie Gehringer (2B,
.320/.404/.480/.884 with 1,775 runs), Cecil Travis (SS, .314/.370/.416/.786),
Jimmie Foxx (3B, .325/.428/.609./1.038 with 534 homers and 1,922 RBI), Chuck
Klein (RF, .320/.379/.543/.922) or Hack Wilson (CF, 191 RBI in a single season),
Lefty O'Doul (LF, .349/.413/.532/.945) and Babe Herman (CF, .324/.383/.532/.859).
Or if I took the Reds' combined WAR for the Great Eight of 439.4 and "spent" it
on whomever I please, I could assemble a team of Roy Campanella (C, 34.2),
George Sisler or Bill Terry (1B, 54.2), Jackie Robinson (2B, 61.5), Ernie Banks
(SS, 67.4), Pie Traynor (3B, 36.2), Al Simmons (OF, 68.7), Shoeless Joe Jackson
(OF, 62.3), and Hack Wilson or Ralph Kiner or Chuck Klein (OF, 49.3). Or I could
upgrade 2B to Charlie Gehringer, or CF to Joe DiMaggio, by opting for Lefty
O'Doul or Lloyd Waner in one outfield position.
According to Baseball Prospectus BWARP, I could trade the 1976 Reds for a team
of Roy Campanella, Hank Greenberg, Charlie Gehringer, Ernie Banks (or Cal Ripken
Jr. or Robin Yount), Jimmie Foxx, Chuck Klein (or Lloyd Waner), Joe DiMaggio and
Matty Alou.
Those are very impressive "replacement" teams, and they help illustrate just how good the Great
Eight really were. However, I think the career rankings undervalue the career
years that Griffey and Gerónimo had in 1976, and the monster years that Morgan,
Rose
and Foster had.
To get real value for the Reds, we need to use WAR, and focus on the 1976
season. To do this, I have taken each player's WAR in 1976 and multiplied it by a
"typical" career of 15 years. Most of the Great Eight played more than 15 years,
but I am trying to "guesstimate" where the Reds would have ended up on the
all-time WAR rankings if they kept duplicating their 1976 achievements. Here's
what I came up with:
Joe Morgan (9.6 x 15 = 144) ≈ Rogers Hornsby (2B), Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Eddie
Collins
Pete Rose (6.9 x 15 = 109.5) ≈ Jimmy Foxx (1B), Albert Pujols, Cal Ripken
George Foster (5.9 x 15 = 88.5) ≈ George Brett (3B), Chipper Jones, Ken Griffey Jr.
Johnny Bench (4.6 x 15 = 69) ≈ Ernie Banks (SS), Al Simmons, Eddie Murray, Carlton
Fisk, Gary Carter
Ken Griffey Sr. (4.6 x 15 = 69) ≈ Carlton Fisk (C), Al Simmons, Ernie Banks, Eddie Murray, Gary Carter
Dave Concepción (4.4 x 15 = 66) ≈ Duke Snider (CF), Goose
Goslin, Joe Cronin, Pee Wee Reese
Cesar Gerónimo (2.7 x 15 = 40.5) ≈ Babe Herman (LF), Dave Justice, Tim Salmon
Tony Pérez (2.6 x 15 = 39) ≈ Hack Wilson (RF), Boog Powell, Dave Parker, Maury Wills
This one "feels" like it might be the most accurate so far. Pérez was still damn
good, but had a bit of a down year, for him, and he doesn't get extra defensive
and baserunning points like Gerónimo and Concepción. I believe that in this
case, projected career WAR is reflecting a fairly accurate picture. If so, my
"fairest" trades will result in a team of: Carlton Fisk, Jimmy Foxx, Rogers
Hornsby, Ernie Banks, George Brett, Duke Snider, Babe Herman and Hack Wilson.
In win shares, the "great eight" have seven of the top 350 players of all time:
Rose (#13), Morgan (#18), Bench (#88), Pérez (#108), Concepción (#297), Foster
(#298) and Griffey (#329). If I were to trade down for the Great Eight, based
on career win shares, I could assemble a team with any of the following:
C - Bench (#2, 365.4) for any catcher other than Yogi Berra: so Bill Dickey,
Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Cochrane, Roy Campanella, Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Carlton Fisk,
Gary Cater, Ted Simmons, Joe Torre, et al
1B - Pérez (#16, 347.5) for any of the following: Hank Greenberg, Bill Terry, George Sisler,
Ernie Banks, Johnny Mize, Orlando Cepeda, Gil Hodges, Mark McGwire, Steve
Garvey, Boog Powell, Will Clark, et al
2B - Morgan (#2, 508.3) for any second baseman other than Eddie Collins: so Rogers Hornsby,
Charlie Gehringer, Nap Lajoie, Rod Carew, Craig Biggio, Ryne Sandberg, Frankie
Frisch, Jeff Kent, Nellie
Fox, et al
SS - Concepción (#28, 269.6) for any of the following: Vern Stephens, Joe Tinker, Maury
Wills, Phil Rizzuto, Al Dark, Dick Groat, Johnny Pesky, Marty Marion, Tony Fernandez,
Nomar Garciaparra, Jim Fregosi, et al
3B - Rose (#1, 546.9) for any third baseman: so Mike Schmidt, Mel Ott, George Brett, Chipper Jones,
Eddie Matthews, Pie Traynor, Home Run Baker, Wade Boggs, Brooks Robinson, Ron
Santo, Darrell Evans, Dick Allen, et al
LF - Foster (#36, 269.3) for any of the following: Ralph Kiner, Charlie Keller, Bob Meusel,
Albert Belle, Roy White, Ryan Braun, Matt Holliday, Gary Matthews, Greg
Luzinski, Hank Sauer, Dusty Baker, Kirk Gibson, et al
RF - Griffey (#37, 260.0) for any of the following: Chuck Klein, Babe Herman,
Harvey Kuenn, Roger Maris, Darryl
Strawberry, Paul O'Neill, Tony Oliva, Carl Furillo, Vic Wertz, Shawn Green,
Felipe Alou, et al
CF - Gerónimo (#197, 106.8) for any of the following: Albie Pearson, Harry "the Hat" Walker,
Don Demeter, Gary Matthews, Lyman Bostock, Billy Hatcher, Chad Curtis, Mitch
Webster, Milt Thompson, et al
So using career win shares, always trading down, I could put together a team of
Bill Dickey, Hank Greenberg, Rogers Hornsby, Vern Stephens, Mike Schmidt, Ralph Kiner, Chuck Klein and Albie
Pearson or Lyman Bostock.
Or trading down based on win shares, I could go for an all-time OPS team of Mike
Piazza (#47, .9217), Hank Greenberg (#6, 1.0169), Rogers Hornsby (#7, 1.0103),
Vern Stephens (.8154), Mel Ott (#23, .9471), Ralph Kiner (#24, .9459), Chuck
Klein (#48, .9218) and Lyman Bostock (.8120). In effect, I would be trading the
superior speed and defense of the Reds for the highest possible on-base and
slugging percentages. And yes, Mel Ott did play third base. Or I could
substitute Mike Schmidt, George Brett or Chipper Jones there.
Using a fairer method of trading up one position or down any number of
positions, I could assemble a team of Roy Campanella, Hank Greenberg, Rogers
Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, Harry Heilmann and Albie
Pearson or Lyman Bostock.
Using the Reds' combined win shares of 2,673.8 to "buy" replacement players, I
could assemble a "murderers' row" of Roy Campanella
(205.9), Jimmie Foxx (431.1), Charlie Gehringer (381.5), Ernie Banks (332.4),
Pie Traynor (273.0), Joe DiMaggio (385.9), Shoeless Joe Jackson (288.1) and Al
Simmons (372.9). That shows just how great the Great Eight really were.
In win shares above bench (WSAB), Morgan ranks #24 and could be traded for Mike
Schmidt, Alex Rodriguez or Jimmy Foxx. Rose ranks #31 and could be traded for
Reggie Jackson, Cap Anson or Joe DiMaggio. Bench ranks #114 and could be traded
for Hank Greenberg, Joe Medwick or Bill Terry. Pérez ranks #168 and could be
traded for Carlton Fisk, Bill Dickey or Jackie Robinson. Foster ranks #303 and
could be traded for Ernie Banks, Gil Hodges or Steve Garvey. Griffey ranks #355
and could be traded for Roger Maris, Roy Campanella or Jimmy Collins. Concepción
with 50.3 WSAB could be traded for Monte Irvin, Ralph Garr, Rabbit Maranville,
Luis Aparicio, or Dick Groat. Gerónimo could be traded for Omar Vizquel, Daryl
Boston, Billy Hatcher or Dave May. So using WSAB, I could assemble a team of Roy
Campanella, Hank Greenberg, Jackie Robinson, Omar Vizquel, Mike Schmidt, Ernie
Banks, Joe DiMaggio and Monte Irvin.
Using the Hall of Stats rankings, I could trade the Great Eight for a team of
Roy Campanella, Jimmy Foxx, Nellie Fox, Ernie Banks, George Brett, Al Simmons,
Dusty Baker and Mike Devereaux. The players I traded, respectively, were Foster
(#392), Morgan (#31), Concepción (#536), Pérez (#286), Bench (#42), Rose (#65),
Griffey (#765), Gerónimo (13.0 career WAR). Other Reds high in the Hall of Stats
rankings include Tom Seaver (#24), Frank Robinson (#28) and Ken Griffey Jr.
(#48). The Hall of Stats also provides "near equivalent" players:
Joe Morgan ≈ Jimmy Foxx, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffy
Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Charlie Gehringer, Eddie Collins
Johnny Bench ≈ Joe DiMaggio, George Brett, Yogi
Berra, Carlton Fisk, Bill Dickey (or any other catcher)
Pete Rose ≈ Al Simmons, Reggie Jackson, Robin Yount,
Rod Carew
Tony Pérez ≈ Ernie Banks, Enos Slaughter, Jim Rice,
Willie Keeler
Dave Concepción ≈ Nellie Fox, Maury Wills, Dick
Groat
George Foster ≈ Roy Campanella, Don Mattingly, Kiki
Cuyler, Tony Oliva, Gil Hodges
Ken Griffey Sr. ≈ Dusty Baker, Bobby Murcer, Shawn
Green, Jim Bottomley
Cesar Gerónimo ≈ Mike Devereaux, Ken Berry, Gary
Matthews
Again, these rankings confirm how good the Great Eight really were. But once
again the career rankings tend to undervalue the career years that Griffey and
Gerónimo had in 1976. That year, Griffey had a stellar 140 OPS+. Hall of Fame
right fielders with comparable OPS+ ratings are Reggie Jackson, Chuck Klein,
Paul Waner and Al Kaline. Gerónimo had an excellent 125 OPS+. That compares with
centerfielders like Earl Combs, Kirby Puckett, Bernie Williams, Eric Davis and
Lyman Bostock. So my "adjusted" Hall of Stats team becomes: Roy Campanella,
Jimmy Foxx, Nellie Fox, Ernie Banks, George Brett, Al Simmons, Reggie Jackson
and Eric Davis. That's a helluva team, but I still like the original Reds better
because they were better defensively and on the basepaths. Trading for OPS
neglects the real value of players like Gerónimo, Concepción, Morgan and Bench―who
were Gold Glove winners and superior base stealers.
The cogs of the Big Red Machine also play well in the power-speed rankings:
Morgan (#6), Rose (#128), Griffey (#134), Concepción (#173), Driessen (#174),
Bench (#332), Foster (#512), Pérez (#531), Gerónimo (#811). Trading down or for
near equivalents, I could assemble a team of Bill Dickey, Lou Gehrig, Eddie
Collins, Honus Wagner, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Aaron, Paul Waner and Shoeless Joe
Jackson. Foster is #302 and can be traded for Joe Medwick, Kiki Cuyler, Vern
Stephens or Ichiro Suzuki.
But I think the fairest approach to trading is my own system, which is based on
fairness. The Reds were unusual in that they had such great players at the most
critical defensive positions: catcher, second, shortstop and third base. When
trading, that should be taken into account. Bench at catcher and Morgan at
second are worth more than hard-hitting first basemen and outfielders. Bench is
the greatest player of all time at a critical position, so I should be able to
trade him for anyone, including Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb and Ted Williams. I
believe Pérez is undervalued because first base is an RBI position and many of
the ranking systems seem to undervalue or ignore RBIs. I should be able to trade
Pérez for other first basemen with fewer career RBI, such as Ernie Banks, Willie
McCovey and Hank Greenberg. Morgan was the greatest all-round second baseman of
all time, so I should be able to trade him for any other second baseman,
including Rogers Hornsby and Charlie Gehringer. According to Bill James,
Concepción is better than all but ten hall-of-fame players at another premium
position. So I should be able to trade him for a top ten player at a less
critical position, such as Pie Traynor or Adrian Beltre. Rose ranks with the
very best third basemen of all time, so I should be able to trade him for a top
five player at another position, such as Mike Piazza or Mike Schmidt. Foster
would rank seventh among HOF left fielders in homers (348) and 11th in RBI
(1,239) and slugging percentage (.480), so he should be traded for similar
value: a top twenty power-hitting left fielder like
Joe Medwick, Billy Williams, Ralph Kiner or Willie Stargell. Griffey compares favorably with HOF outfielders
Enos Slaughter, Kiki Cuyler and Lloyd Waner.
Gerónimo compares with Albie Pearson, Lyman Bostock and Harry "the Hat" Walker.
So according to my "fairness" doctrine, I can trade the 1976 Reds for a team of
Mike Piazza, Ernie Banks, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Pie Traynor, Joe Medwick,
Kiki Cuyler and Albie Pearson.
Thus, according to stats like WAR and win shares, the Great Eight truly were great, and we can see
just how great by considering the players they
could be exchanged for. Do I like my new teams better than the 1976 Reds? No,
because they are not as good defensively or on the basepaths. I will keep my
beloved Reds. I just did the "swapping" to demonstrate the quality of the team
according to career WAR. If I were trading, it would be hard to give up Bench's
defense and power, Morgan's all-round excellence, Rose's leadership and
versatility, and Foster's intimidation factor. And I really can't get comparable value for Gerónimo and Griffey, who both had
career years in 1976. So I will keep the Big Red Machine, thank you very much!
How about the 1927 Yankees? Their career WAR rankings tell us that Ruth (163.1)
and Gehrig (112.4) were truly great. But there is a huge drop-off to Tony
Lazzeri (49.9) and Earle Combs (42,5), especially considering their defensive
limitations. There is another significant drop-off to Bob Meusel (27.6). Then we
have three career sad sacks in Mark Koenig (7.6), Joe Dugan (9.3) and Pat
Collins (6.8). Here's a position-by-position comparison:
C - Johnny Bench is the #1 catcher of all time (75.0) advantage over
Pat Collins (6.8) = 11X
1B - Tony Pérez is the #27 first baseman of all time (53.9) disadvantage to Lou
Gehrig (112.4) = negative 2X
2B - Joe Morgan is the #4 second baseman of all time (100.3) advantage over Tony
Lazzeri (49.9) = 2X, which doesn't begin to illustrate the real difference here
SS - Dave Concepción is the #42 shortstop of all time (39.9) advantage over Mark
Koenig (7.6) = 5X
3B - Pete Rose is the #7 third baseman of all time (79.1) advantage over Joe
Dugan (9.3) = 9X
RF - Ken Griffey Sr. is the #71 right fielder of all time (34.4) disadvantage to
Babe Ruth (163.1) = negative 5X
CF - Cesar Gerónimo is the #204 center fielder of all time (13.0) disadvantage
to Earle Combs (42.5) = negative 3X
LF - George Foster is the #30 left fielder of all time (43.9) advantage over Bob
Meusel (27.6) = 2X
Obviously, Babe Ruth has a huge advantage over Griffey. But Gehrig is only a
"double" at first base due to the Reds having a hall-of-famer and one of the
greatest RBI men of all time at that position. However, Morgan has as big an
advantage over Lazzeri as Gehrig does over Pérez. The only other advantage the
Yankees have over the Reds is in center field. But that advantage is negated by
Foster's clear superiority to Meusel. We are left with three positions where the
Red absolutely clobber the Yankees: catcher (11X), shortstop (5X) and third base
(9X). So career WAR tells me that the Reds were the much better all-round team,
and that the advantage of Ruth, Gehrig and Combs (the third perhaps a mirage due
to his abysmal arm) was vastly overcome by the superiority of
Bench, Morgan, Concepción, Foster and Rose at their positions. And there is
probably another mirage, because I don't believe that Combs was three times the
player Gerónimo was. Nor do I think that Gehrig was twice the player Pérez was.
The Yankees' batting statistics were inflated by their era. There has never been
a first baseman who was twice as good as Pérez, not even the Iron Horse. If they
played in the same era, Gehrig might still be the better hitter, but their
statistics would be much closer. And to be quite frank, playing in the same era, Foster
would probably be comparable to Ruth, and Pérez to Gehrig. But for the sake of
argument, let's say that Ruth and Gehrig are still superior. Combs may
have an offensive advantage in center, but let's take away half a point for his
defensive limitations. The Reds win every other position, hands
down. So the final tally is 6 1/2 to 2 1/2. The Reds are clearly the better team,
with the Yankees committing 196 errors and having two catchers and a center
fielder with lame arms. The Reds would have run wild on them.
Now, back to the trading ...
If I am trading on career OPS+, which doesn't take into account the great
defense and base-stealing of the Great Eight, I can still acquire a team
consisting of Yogi Berra or Roy Campanella (C), Steve Garvey or George Sisler
(1B), Charlie Gehringer or Rod Carew (2B), Ozzie Smith or Ernie Banks (SS), Paul
Molitor or Adrian Beltre (3B), and an outfield taken from among Roberto
Clemente, Tony Gwynn, Sammy Sosa, Earle Combs and Bob Meusel. Here are other
potential trades based on career OPS+ ...
Joe Morgan 132 career OPS+ for Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Rod Carew,
Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Tony Oliva, Dave Winfield, Carl
Yastrzemski, Goose Goslin
Johnny Bench 126 career OPS+ for Bill Dickey, Rickey Henderson, Yogi Berra,
Roger Maris, Earle Combs, Wee Willie Keeler, George Sisler, Charlie
Gehringer, Paul Molitor
George Foster 126 career OPS+ for Bill Dickey, Rickey Henderson,
Yogi Berra, Roger Maris, Earle Combs, Wee Willie Keeler, George Sisler, Carl
Yatrzemski, Jim Rice
Tony Pérez 122 career OPS+ for Roy Campanella, Paul Molitor,
Tony Lazzeri, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Jim Bottomley, Ernie Banks, Gil Hodges,
George Sisler, Ryan Howard
Pete Rose 118 career OPS+ for Joe Cronin, Paul Molitor, Derek Jeter, Vern Stephens,
Brooks Robinson, Andre Dawson, Bob
Meusel, Steve Garvey, Adrian Beltre, Pie Traynor
Ken Griffey 118 career OPS+ for Joe Cronin, Paul Molitor, Derek Jeter, Vern Stephens,
Brooks Robinson, Andre Dawson, Bob
Meusel, Carlton Fisk, Steve Garvey
Cesar Gerónimo 93 career OPS+ for Willie Wilson, Paul Blair,
Doc Cramer, Bobby Tolan, Mule Haas, Jim Piersall, Gary Matthews
Dave Concepción 88 career OPS+ for Ozzie Smith, Phil Rizzuto,
Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Dick Groat, Maury Wills, Gary Templeton, Bert
Campaneris
So trading for "near equivalent" OPS+,. even though this tends to devalue the
Great Eight by ignoring their superior defense and baserunning, I can assemble a
team of Roy Campanella (C), Steve Garvey (1B), Charlie Gehringer (2B), Ozzie
Smith (SS), Pie Traynor (3B), Roberto Clemente (RF), Willie Wilson (CF), Rickey
Henderson (LF)
Trading for "pure OPS" I could assemble a team of near eqivalents, which again
tends to undervalue the Reds' defense and base-stealing prowess ...
Joe Morgan .819 career OPS for Rod Carew, Rickey
Henderson, Ernie Banks, Keith Hernandez, Bobby Doerr, Joe Gordon
George Foster .818 career OPS for Rickey Henderson, Adrian
Beltre, Roger Maris, Joe Adcock, Boog Powell, Dixie Walker, Howard Baines
Johnny Bench .818 career OPS for Paul Molitor, Derek Jeter,
Vern Stephens, Zack Wheat, Dale Murphy, Ernie Lombardi, Joe Torre
Tony Pérez .804 career OPS for Home Run Baker, Wee Willie
Keeler, Frankie Frisch, Joe Sewell, Dave Parker, Matt Williams, Andre Dawson
Ken Griffey .790 career OPS for Steve Garvey, Cal Ripken, Frank
Chance, Brooks Robinson, Darrell Evans, Bill Skowron, Lonnie Smith, Lou Whitaker
Pete Rose .784 career OPS for Robin Yount,
Cal Ripken, Steve Garvey, Frank Chance, Mickey Vernon, Dave Kingman, George
"Killer" Kell
Dan Driessen .767 career OPS for Gary Carter, Ichiro Suzuki,
Lou Brock, Steve Garvey, Lee May, George Scott, Nate Colbert, Thurman Munson,
Brooks Robinson
Cesar Gerónimo .693 career OPS for Bert Campaneris, Willie Wilson, Paul Blair,
Bobby Tolan, Ned Hanlon, Harry Wright, Bill Virdon, Otis Nixon, Mookie Wilson,
Cesar Tovar
Dave Concepción .697 career OPS for Ozzie Smith, Phil Rizzuto,
Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Joe Tinker, John Ward, Leo Durocher
I took advantage of the fact that Dan Driessen had a strong career OPS to pick
up Bert Campaneris as a utility player. My "equivalent OPS team" is Gary Carter
(C), Steve Garvey (1B), Rod Carew (2B), Ozzie Smith (SS), Home Run Baker (3B),
Robin Yount (RF), Paul Molitor (CF), Rickey Henderson (LF), Bert Campaneris
(UT). Campaneris once played all nine positions in a single game, and was an
accomplished base stealer.
Another way to trade is by "near equivalents" for each position. I
have tried to find the "closest match" at each position. This gives me a
team of ...
(C) Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey, Mickey Cochrane,
Mike Piazza (for Johnny Bench, the greatest catcher of all time based on overall
excellence)
(1B) Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, Mark McGwire, Orlando
Cepeda, Johnny Mize, Hank Greenberg (for
Tony Pérez, based on career RBI at an RBI position)
(2B) Nap Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer, Rod Carew, Frankie Frisch
(for Joe Morgan, one of the greatest second basemen of all time based on overall
excellence)
(SS) Ozzie Smith, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese, Luis Aparicio, Maury Wills
(for
Dave Concepción, who ranks around the middle of the 21 hall-of-fame shortstops
according to Bill James)
(3B) Paul Molitor, Wade Boggs, George Brett, Home Run Baker, Pie Traynor
(for Pete Rose, whose career WAR would rank him the 7th best third baseman of
all time, ahead of Molitor)
(LF) Jim Rice, Albert Belle, Willie Stargell, Joe Medwick (for
George Foster, based on WAR7, because for a decade he was the equal of Rice,
Belle, Stargell, et al)
(CF) Paul Blair, Marquis Grissom, Mickey Stanley, Darin Erstad,
Jim Piersall, Ken Berry (for
Cesar Gerónimo, based on multiple Gold Gloves and similar career OPS+).
(RF) Bob Meusel, Carl Furillo, Reggie Sanders, Harold Baines,
Paul O'Neill, Jackie Jensen (for Ken Griffey Sr., based on WAR7)
(UT) Bill Melton, Carney Lansford, Dave Magadan, Gil McDougald,
Toby Harrah, Chris Sabo (for Dan Driessen, based on similar career OPS and the
ability to play several positions)
Any way we dice it, in trades the Elite Eight were worth their weight in gold.
What About Contemporary Teams?
So what about more recent teams? Take the highly-touted 2017 Houston Astros,
for example. At catcher, no one is ever going to mistake Brian McCann or Evan Gattis for Johnny Bench. At age 33, Yuli Gurriel and his 88 career RBI will
never be mentioned in the same breath with Tony Pérez. Jose Altuve had a great
year at second, but Joe Morgan was playing in another league in 1975-1976. Alex Bregman has 211 career hits; that's one season to Pete Rose
at third. Carlos
Correa gives the Astros their first possible win at shortstop; he could be a
hall-of-famer although that remains to be seen. George Springer is good, but not
as good as George Foster in his prime, or at least not yet. At age 30, Josh
Reddick does not look likely to compare with Ken Griffey Sr., and especially not
in 1976 when he was an all-star playing at the same level as Rose. At age 35, to
go with his 94 OPS+, Norichika Aoki has 10.8 WAR, which is less than Cesar
Gerónimo's 13.0 (not to mention his four Gold Gloves and two World Series wins).
Carlos Beltran lends a good name, but only 84 OPS+ for 2017. Marwin Gonzalez
is a very nice utility player, but so was Dan Driessen (and Rose could play six
positions and was an all-star at five of them). Furthermore, the Reds
were better on defense and were much more prolific and efficient base-stealers.
The Reds had Gold Glove winners "up the middle" at the four most critical
defensive positions. The Astros not only had no Gold Glove winners, they
didn't have a single nominee at any position. And the Astros were 13th out of 15
AL teams in being caught stealing. Only Altuve and Bregman had more than nine
steals, while the Reds had eight players with ten or more, including Morgan with
60 and Griffey with 34 (nearly as many as the Astros, with less than half the "caughts"). So there really is no comparison, even if Altuve, Correa and Springer all become
hall-of-famers.
Ditto the 2017 Cleveland Indians, who have one possible win a shortstop with
Franciso Lindor, although Concepción was certainly competitive in 1976. Lindor
obviously has more power and the potential to be one of the great shortstops.
But that still leaves the Reds with the advantage at seven positions, especially
when we compare Yan Gomes with his 83 OPS+ to Bench, Jason Kipnis with his 82
OPS+ to Morgan, and Bradley Zimmer with his 79 OPS+ to any Reds outfielder.
The 2017 Los Angeles Dodgers don't fare (or compare) any better. They are
competitive at first with Cody Bellinger and at short with Corey Seager. But the
Reds win massively at catcher, second, third and in the outfield. The Dodgers
had just two nominees for Gold Gloves and only 77 steals. The real strength of
this team was its pitching, especially Kershaw, Wood, Darvish, Hill, Jansen,
Fields and Baez. Four of the top nine hitters were average or below, according
to OPS+.
Ditto with the 2016 Cubs. Even if Kris Bryant and Anthony Rizzo end up in the
Hall of Fame, they will at best be competitive with Rose and Pérez. Concepción
and Addison Russell look competitive at short with nearly identical seasonal
WAR. But none of the other Cubs compare with Bench, Morgan, the Destroyer
and Griffey. The Cubs' only clear win might be at center with Dexter Fowler
having a very nice 4.2 WAR season in 2016.
Bottom line? The best contemporary teams struggle to match the 1976 Reds at one
or two positions. There simply isn't a team out there with a catcher as
all-excelling as Bench, a first baseman as run-productive as Pérez, a second
baseman as crazy good as Morgan, a shortstop as well-rounded as Concepción, a
third baseman as dynamic as Rose, and three outfielders as good as Foster,
Griffey and Gerónimo. The Reds will call your pair of aces, then lay down a
royal flush: the greatest infield of all time (Bench, Pérez, Morgan, Concepción,
Rose), followed by three jokers (Foster, Griffey, Gerónimo). And they still have
Dan Driessen hidden up their sleeve! (He would hit .300 with 91 RBI and 31
steals in 1977.)
Related Pages: All-Time Cincinnati Reds Baseball Team,
The Greatest Baseball Infields of All Time,
Cincinnati Reds Trivia,
Is Mike Trout the GOAT?,
Best Baseball Nicknames,
Weird Baseball Facts and Trivia,
Baseball Hall of Fame: The Best Candidates,
Why Pete Rose Should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame,
Big Red Machine Chronology
The HyperTexts